Hi All, as new licensed pilot I am looking else where for plane
rentals. As you know that the price is a great concern. For a C152 it
can be from $59/hr (wet) to $90/hr (wet). big differences.

My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
maintained well?! Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Lo

> My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
> plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
> maintained well?!

A few things come to mind, and they are far from foolproof. But the
first thing I'd evaluate is the FBO. How are the -other- planes? Look
at the squawk sheets - how do squawks get addressed? Talk to the
maintanance people - get a feel for their attitude.

Is this particular plane a leaseback or owned by the FBO? (neither is
in itself good or bad, but it will give a sense as to how much of the
initial feeling carries over to this plane). If it is leased back, talk
to the owner.

Do a thorough preflight, and bring up any concerns. Gauge the response.

Go over the manintanance logs. This of course requires that you know
what you are looking at, which isn't always that easy). Talk to the
instructors there; maybe have one with you as you go over the logs, to
explain things to you. Don't take his explanations at face value, but
get a sense from it and them about how seriously they take things.

Not all squawks indicate a problem with the airplane. Some (many?
most?) may be pilot ignorance. (I've had people squawk inop electric
trim, when the problem was the previous pilot switched it off and the
next pilot didn't even know there was an off switch).

Post questions about the specific FBO here; some pilots may have
experience with them and be willing to share.

In the end, there are some things you'll only learn after you've flown a
plane for a while, and seen what happens.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
> plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
> maintained well?! Any advice would be appreciated.

1. Look at the planes. Ask to see the rentals. Sit in them. Examine
their general condition. Is the interior tattered? Are the
instruments tired looking? Is the paint faded and old? All of these
point to less-than-wonderful maintenance.

2. Turn on the master switch. Listen to the gyros spin up. Hear any
grinding noises? Turn the radios on, listen to the external speaker.
Hear any static? Switch from radio to radio. Does the audio panel
work right? *Is* there an audio panel? Check the tach time. Is it
in 5 digits? Look at the tires. Any tread? Look for leaks around
the plane(s). Check the condition of the plastic parts. Cracked?
Old? Hangar rash on the wing tips? All are clues.

3. Observe the FBO. How's the place look? Are there people around?
Check the magazines -- are they five years old? Use the bathroom. Is
it a pit? Is someone taking pride in the condition of the place, or is
it a dive? All are indicators.

4. IF everything above appears satisfactory, ask to see the aircraft
logbooks. (No sense in wasting your time if the first three items are
bad.) Make sure everything is there, going back to the date of
manufacture. If you want to be really anal, get a list of all ADs for
that model plane, and make sure they've all been complied with. (This
will take HOURS.)

5. Get checked out. Remember, you are checking THEM out as much as
they are checking you out. If the instructor is too casual -- or too
strict -- you may have trouble. See how the planes fly -- are they
straight and true? Can you fly them hand's off without too much rudder
trim?

We rented for four years, and during that time flew some real dogs. We
also flew some real cherries -- so be careful which one you pick.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

wrote:
> Hi All, as new licensed pilot I am looking else where for plane
> rentals. As you know that the price is a great concern. For a C152 it
> can be from $59/hr (wet) to $90/hr (wet). big differences.
>
> My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
> plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
> maintained well?! Any advice would be appreciated.



General appearance is a clue. If it looks ragged out, it probably is ragged
out. If they've paid attention to the appearance of the aircraft, the chances
are the rest of the aircraft is maintained as well. There are no guarantees, of
course, but they won't stay in business long if they only rent out POS.

As for what you're getting when you rent a new bird, I am VERY interested in the
avionics. If possible, go sit in it and look around for a while before you add
it to your rentable list.

One other thing: if there's a bird that doesn't get rented much, there's
probably a reason. It could be as simple as too much money, or it could mean
it's a dog. Caveat emptor!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi All, as new licensed pilot I am looking else where for plane
> rentals. As you know that the price is a great concern. For a C152 it
> can be from $59/hr (wet) to $90/hr (wet). big differences.
>
> My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
> plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
> maintained well?! Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Lo
>

Four things I would do:

Ask to see the maintenance logs for the aircraft in question.
Ask for phone numbers of others who frequently rent there.
Ask for the name and Phone number of the mechanic who does the FBOs
maintenance.
Search the NTSB website for the N number of the plane in question to try and
determine if there has ever been damage serious enough to warrant an NTSB
investigation.
Take one of their instructors or FBO management with you for a hop. Worry
if they hesitate or decline and start sweating...


I'm sure others will have some suggestions as well.

> There are no guarantees, of
> course, but they won't stay in business long if they only rent out POS.

Depends on the price.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I was going to respond in detail to this,
then I saw that Jay Beckman had said pretty much everything that I was
going to say.

So - do everything that Jay said.
Then stop worrying and go fly.
FBO aircraft are not falling out of the sky every day.
Checkout instructors are not suicidal nuts who will fly planes held
together with adhesive tape.
You are not an A & E so you can't tell anyway - you have to trust or go
rent a car instead.
Or buy your own plane.

Don't overanalyze this.
Check the books,
Do a decent walkaround
and go fly.

That's my best advice

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Hi All, as new licensed pilot I am looking else where for plane
> rentals. As you know that the price is a great concern. For a C152 it
> can be from $59/hr (wet) to $90/hr (wet). big differences.
>
> My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
> plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
> maintained well?! Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Lo

Jay Honeck wrote
> ...
> 4. ... If you want to be really anal, get a list of all ADs for
> that model plane, and make sure they've all been complied with. (This
> will take HOURS.)

Impossible for a renter. Maybe even impossible for an IA. Unless the FBO
will allow you to disassamble the engine and airframe. <g>

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> 3. Observe the FBO. How's the place look? Are there people around?
> Check the magazines -- are they five years old? Use the bathroom. Is
> it a pit? Is someone taking pride in the condition of the place, or is
> it a dive? All are indicators.

Good advice, except for most of the above.

I happen to know be very familiar with a high-quality FBO who operates
in a city-owned, badly maintained, RENTED facility, built in 1936. His
aircraft are in great shape, and his mechanics are high-quality on all
levels. The place is orderly, neat, and organized, but the building is
a pit.

> > 4. ... If you want to be really anal, get a list of all ADs for
> > that model plane, and make sure they've all been complied with. (This
> > will take HOURS.)
>
> Impossible for a renter. Maybe even impossible for an IA. Unless the FBO
> will allow you to disassamble the engine and airframe. <g>

Well, okay, unless it's something obvious, you can't really check to
see if the AD work was actually done. But you *can* check to see that
it was signed off as having BEEN done.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

> I happen to know be very familiar with a high-quality FBO who operates
> in a city-owned, badly maintained, RENTED facility, built in 1936. His
> aircraft are in great shape, and his mechanics are high-quality on all
> levels. The place is orderly, neat, and organized, but the building is
> a pit.

Good point. It's not always possible to take into account landlords.
However, in general, if the FBO takes no pride in their surroundings, I
wouldn't trust that they care any more about their aircraft.

Note that I'm NOT talking about the shop. I'm talking about the FBO
office area -- their "front door".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> Note that I'm NOT talking about the shop. I'm talking about the FBO
> office area -- their "front door".

Neither am I. The place is neat and orderly, but it's old and worn.

This guy cleans his bathrooms, but they have stained ceilings and
crumbling plaster from a leaky roof, and leaky pipes. He vacuums the
carpeting, but it's also stained from building-related problems.

He's 5 years into a process where it looks like the city is going to
finally build him a new building, but it's a deathly slow political process.

He's the only FBO on the field, and there aren't other choices for
buildings.

On the other hand, his fuel prices are good to excellent, and he's got
very nice, knowledgeable, employees with a caring attitude.

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote
>> ...
>> 4. ... If you want to be really anal, get a list of all ADs for
>> that model plane, and make sure they've all been complied with. (This
>> will take HOURS.)
>
> Impossible for a renter. Maybe even impossible for an IA. Unless the FBO
> will allow you to disassamble the engine and airframe. <g>
>
>
If there are AD's against something, compliance should be in the
maintenance records.

When I learned to fly (in the late 60's at Zahns Airport , Amityville, Long
Island) there was no running water in the rest rooms. If you "had to go",
you made it quick, and held your nose. I never once had a problem with their
PA28's or CFIs however.

A year or two later, I did my Instrument rating at A.T.E. (now American
Flyers) which operated from a fancy office at Islip, NY. Their fleet was no
better than that at Zahns.
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > I happen to know be very familiar with a high-quality FBO who operates
> > in a city-owned, badly maintained, RENTED facility, built in 1936. His
> > aircraft are in great shape, and his mechanics are high-quality on all
> > levels. The place is orderly, neat, and organized, but the building is
> > a pit.
>
> Good point. It's not always possible to take into account landlords.
> However, in general, if the FBO takes no pride in their surroundings, I
> wouldn't trust that they care any more about their aircraft.
>
> Note that I'm NOT talking about the shop. I'm talking about the FBO
> office area -- their "front door".
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

"Jay Beckman" > wrote:
> Ask to see the maintenance logs for the aircraft in question.

While looking them over, check that the aircraft's last annual was within
the last 12 months and is otherwise legally airworthy. The FAA once
suspended a renter's certificate for 30 days because the renter flew a
plane that was 12 days past the expiration date of its last annual. The
following post from 2004 gives a few more details:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/msg/a0cc34cd81b11723

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote:
>> Ask to see the maintenance logs for the aircraft in question.
>
> While looking them over, check that the aircraft's last annual was within
> the last 12 months and is otherwise legally airworthy. The FAA once
> suspended a renter's certificate for 30 days because the renter flew a
> plane that was 12 days past the expiration date of its last annual. The
> following post from 2004 gives a few more details:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/msg/a0cc34cd81b11723

Good point by Jim...

Also, don't forget to make an A R O W check to be sure the paperwork IN the
airplane is correct.

Jay B

("tony roberts" wrote)
> Don't overanalyze this.
> Check the books,
> Do a decent walkaround and go fly.


Be polite, but be firm - IT'S YOUR MONEY.

"I would like to see the books, please." Then sit down for 30 minutes and
read them.

YOUR MONEY IS STILL IN YOUR POCKET.

"I would like to talk with three renters and three instructors, please."

YOUR MONEY IS STILL IN YOUR POCKET.

"I need to use the bathroom." No really, you probably have to go by now. <g>

I've always thought this advise had much merit, when "purchasing" a
($35,000) plane:

- Check out the owner's car. Open the trunk. Open the hood and check the
engine oil and fluid levels. Check out the glovebox for maintenance records.
Etc, etc. Chances are good that if the car is a mess, the plane has been
operated that way, too.

So yes, look over the operation.

Most importantly, look over THREE operations (on three different fields?)
Now, what are the differences. What did you like and dislike about each FBO,
etc.

Also, how about local Flying Clubs?

Call the aiport manager at three local airports. They will tell you what
Flying Clubs are on their field. Google. Some have websites, some do not.
BTW, where will you be flying out of? Someone here might have a
recommendation for you.

Good luck. Keep us posted...


Montblack

"B A R R Y" wrote about an FBO
> ... The place is neat and orderly, but it's old and worn.
> ... his fuel prices are good to excellent, and he's got very nice,
> knowledgeable, employees with a caring attitude.

Pray he never gets the new building! I would expect all that to change.
<semi grin>

The PIC, whether an owner, paid pilot or a renter, is
expected to check and be sure EVERYTHING is done and
properly signed off. That includes ADs, annual,
transponder, ELT, a current and up-to-date POH/AFM.

The easiest method is to call the FAA and ask for a ramp
check by the FAA maintenance inspectors. Or have the
owner's shop AI sit down with you and go over the
maintenance records.

You can now go on-line with the aircraft make, model and
serial number and a list of installed equipment and do an AD
search on the airframe, engine, prop and accessories.


The FAA will hold the PIC accountable, but a pilot/renter,
whether an ATP or a student will have to rely to some extent
on the honesty and ethics of the shop and aircraft owner. A
logbook entry doesn't always mean the work was really done.
Some owners don't follow up on required repairs and people
are just plain and simple crooks/ con artists. Others are
just not competent.

Any company or person who will not show you the logbooks and
other records should be avoided.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
| "Jay Beckman" > wrote:
| > Ask to see the maintenance logs for the aircraft in
question.
|
| While looking them over, check that the aircraft's last
annual was within
| the last 12 months and is otherwise legally airworthy. The
FAA once
| suspended a renter's certificate for 30 days because the
renter flew a
| plane that was 12 days past the expiration date of its
last annual. The
| following post from 2004 gives a few more details:
|
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/msg/a0cc34cd81b11723

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:jJCNg.22513$SZ3.15912@dukeread04...
> The easiest method is to call the FAA and ask for a ramp
> check by the FAA maintenance inspectors. >


Jim,

The FAA would NEVER do that. Maybe 20 years ago, but not today. They have,
what they believe, work to do.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

There are ways to get them out of the office and actually
look at an airplane. But the most desirable thing is to get
the logbooks and the A&P/AI that did the last annual to go
over the records and then you check on the airplane to see
if you can identify the work that is described in the logs.

Even better, take a an hour or three on a class on aircraft
record keeping.


"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:jJCNg.22513$SZ3.15912@dukeread04...
| > The easiest method is to call the FAA and ask for a ramp
| > check by the FAA maintenance inspectors. >
|
|
| Jim,
|
| The FAA would NEVER do that. Maybe 20 years ago, but not
today. They have,
| what they believe, work to do.
|
| Karl
| "Curator" N185KG
|
|

wrote:
> Hi All, as new licensed pilot I am looking else where for plane
> rentals. As you know that the price is a great concern. For a C152 it
> can be from $59/hr (wet) to $90/hr (wet). big differences.
>
> My question is, when you first go to a FBO, what to check when seeing a
> plane that you never flew on. How do I know that this plane is
> maintained well?! Any advice would be appreciated.

You've gotten a lot of advice here. About the simplest advice I can
give you is this - read it all, and then do the opposite.

First off - understand that money is limited, but problems are not.
Nice bathrooms cost money. Nice furniture costs money. Good paint and
interior cost money. Attentive staff cost money. Uniforms cost money.
Money spent on those things is not being spent on what's really
important - airframe, engine, avionics. But the items above - the
things you know something about and can evaluate - are far more obvious
than problems with airframes, engines, or avionics - about which you
probably know little. That's why solid, reliable rental aircraft are a
rarity, and why the successful aviation business will generally spend
money on bathrooms, furniture, paint, interior, and uniforms before it
spends that money on airframes, engines, and avionics.

You can forget about logbooks - those can easily be a work of fiction.
I once bought an airplane that had a logbook entry for AD compliance in
1957 - the installation of a new design fuel line. All signed off and
legal. Except that the fuel line still had the original 1955 tag. A
different airplane - all brake hoses replaced in 1997. When one of
them burst on me and I removed it, it had the original 1965 tags.

You can forget about getting the FAA to inspect the airplane - most
FBO's won't allow you to call them, and for good reason. Most planes,
even good ones, won't pass the average inspection.

Either you know enough about airplane maintenance to actually inspect
the airplane, or you are guessing. That's all there is to it. You
learn about airplane maintenance by maintaining airplanes. There is no
other way.

Fortunately, most rental airplanes are very rugged by design. The
chances of something going wrong badly enough to hurt you an a day-VFR
flight, assuming you keep your head, are very small. I consider night
and IFR flying in rentals to be generally a bad idea. If you need to
do that, buy an airplane and learn to maintain it.

The most reliable way to get reasonably good airplanes - look for a
place that has new ones. It's expensive, but may be worth it to you.

The only other choice is to look for a place run by a crusty old
mechanic who won't spend the money on nice furniture, uniforms, paint,
or interior, but always seems to be working on the planes. If he's the
guy the local owners with the nice planes go to, then you've hit pay
dirt.

Michael
CFI, ATP, A&P, and other good alphabet soup